Holds in a walk cycle with a camera pan

[OwenWelsh]

Does anyone know how you would do a walk cycle (character walking in place) and on one of the poses you put a pause or a moving hold when both feet are on the ground? The problem I see with this is that the feet have to be slipping on the screen equidistant apart (so it sync's up with the background). If you pause the foot for a brief second to emphasize that pose the character will slip on the background. I guess for something like this you have to translate the character across the paper rather than animate them walking in place if you are using a pan?

Anyone have an idea on how to accomplish this?

[Snapai]

From what I understand, any animation that is supposed to match up with another element must change every time that element does. (as in: panning backgrounds on ones are one place where the animation is required to go on ones regardless of the action, otherwise you'll get strobing)

Probably the best way is to go ahead and make the extra drawing, and do your best to hold the pose rather than the drawing, while still making everything match up. :)

[Regan]

You probly just keep the background still for that drawing, since it's not moving any distance...but I'd guess it would look better to just fudge it and let the character slide.

[TimothyB]

So you want to have a character stop mid-pan? Like to take a breath for example, or look around before moving again, while the background is still panning?

I figure yes, the entire character will start move at the speed the feet were moving while touching the ground during the walk or run.

I guess a way to think of it would be watching someone walking on a motorized treadmill. They stay in place as they walk as they're feet slide back, but if they stop, they will slide backwards on the treadmill until they fall off. So you have to imagine a treadmill under your character on the paper.

Thien, the character will start again offset from where it originally was, or take a extra long footstep or leep to catch up before returning to the cycle where the character originally was before stopping.

I bet it has to be confusing when the pan has to slow to a stop, instead of a jerk, and the character foot slip distance would change each drawing to match the slow stop. Or say the background it panning to the left, but the character is running faster and still moves across the paper to the right, any foot on the ground still moves at the speed of the pan to the left, then say the characters stops at the edge of the paper, maybe climbed on a tall rock, looks around and slides back to the left side of the paper as he or she followed the pan, then starts leaping forward again.

[OwenWelsh]

So you want to have a character stop mid-pan? Like to take a breath for example, or look around before moving again, while the background is still panning?

I figure yes, the entire character will start move at the speed the feet were moving while touching the ground during the walk or run.

I guess a way to think of it would be watching someone walking on a motorized treadmill. They stay in place as they walk as they're feet slide back, but if they stop, they will slide backwards on the treadmill until they fall off. So you have to imagine a treadmill under your character on the paper.

Thien, the character will start again offset from where it originally was, or take a extra long footstep or leep to catch up before returning to the cycle where the character originally was before stopping.

I bet it has to be confusing when the pan has to slow to a stop, instead of a jerk, and the character foot slip distance would change each drawing to match the slow stop. Or say the background it panning to the left, but the character is running faster and still moves across the paper to the right, any foot on the ground still moves at the speed of the pan to the left, then say the characters stops at the edge of the paper, maybe climbed on a tall rock, looks around and slides back to the left side of the paper as he or she followed the pan, then starts leaping forward again.

Yes, this is exactly what I was wondering about. It makes sense... thanks guys for your responses. I wonder if it would be correct to consider that the pan is basically an animated background moving past the screen that's trying to sync up with the walk cycle in place. The camera is a separate entity that you change the speed up on and it shouldn't affect the pan or character's sync -- but if the characters stride is irregular (non-linear feet slides) then it would probably be a headache to constantly be adjusting the panned BG to line up with the irregular foot slide speeds. Right?

[TimothyB]

Yes, this is exactly what I was wondering about. It makes sense... thanks guys for your responses. I wonder if it would be correct to consider that the pan is basically an animated background moving past the screen that's trying to sync up with the walk cycle in place. The camera is a separate entity that you change the speed up on and it shouldn't affect the pan or character's sync -- but if the characters stride is irregular (non-linear feet slides) then it would probably be a headache to constantly be adjusting the panned BG to line up with the irregular foot slide speeds. Right?

Well, I figure the pan has to stay consistent. I it were to try to match erratic feet positions, the overall pan would become jerky instead of smooth. I haven't thought much about camera movement combined with it. It's got to be hard to setup pans, combined with camera, so nothing odd happens. I think from all the has been said by Don Bluth, the background pan is probably planned first, then the animator has to measure how much to slide the feet to match. And if the pan moves every frame, then you can't animate on twos, you have to animate on 1s like in the Fievel example march, with a new image for every frame. I guess a pan on 2s would stutter too much.

Basically you can do whatever you want with the character, it's just that if a part, like the feet, is touch the ground, it has to move exactly the same amount as the pan. While if nothing is touching the ground, like Don Bluth said, you don't have to worry at all about the pan until contact again.

[OwenWelsh]

Well, I figure the pan has to stay consistent. I it were to try to match erratic feet positions, the overall pan would become jerky instead of smooth. I haven't thought much about camera movement combined with it. It's got to be hard to setup pans, combined with camera, so nothing odd happens. I think from all the has been said by Don Bluth, the background pan is probably planned first, then the animator has to measure how much to slide the feet to match. And if the pan moves every frame, then you can't animate on twos, you have to animate on 1s like in the Fievel example march, with a new image for every frame. I guess a pan on 2s would stutter too much.

Basically you can do whatever you want with the character, it's just that if a part, like the feet, is touch the ground, it has to move exactly the same amount as the pan. While if nothing is touching the ground, like Don Bluth said, you don't have to worry at all about the pan until contact again.

Yup I agree... I was thinking of doing some irregular walks... ones that have a pause or that change of the pacing for a brief moment but it sounds like you have to be careful about it if a pan is involved.

[Don Bluth]

Does anyone know how you would do a walk cycle (character walking in place) and on one of the poses you put a pause or a moving hold when both feet are on the ground? The problem I see with this is that the feet have to be slipping on the screen equidistant apart (so it sync's up with the background). If you pause the foot for a brief second to emphasize that pose the character will slip on the background. I guess for something like this you have to translate the character across the paper rather than animate them walking in place if you are using a pan?

Anyone have an idea on how to accomplish this?

You ask a good question. You must ask yourself if the camera pauses at the same rate that the character does. If the character stopped entirely but the pan continued, it means the character would pan off screen with the background. The illusion we are trying to give is that there is a camera person photographing the character.
If the camera person sees the character slowing down, might he/she also slow down to keep the character center screen? In such a case, if the characters foot slows, the pan would also slow at the same rate.

[Don Bluth]

From what I understand, any animation that is supposed to match up with another element must change every time that element does. (as in: panning backgrounds on ones are one place where the animation is required to go on ones regardless of the action, otherwise you'll get strobing)

Probably the best way is to go ahead and make the extra drawing, and do your best to hold the pose rather than the drawing, while still making everything match up. :)

Background movements should never be shot on 2's; always on 1's otherwise you will create a strobing effect; the background will have a jerky movement and not smooth. If the characters feet are seen on screen, the feet must move at the same rate as the pan move. That is the rule. Any other way you will create foot slippage, strobing and jerky movement.

Thanks

[Don Bluth]

So you want to have a character stop mid-pan? Like to take a breath for example, or look around before moving again, while the background is still panning?

I figure yes, the entire character will start move at the speed the feet were moving while touching the ground during the walk or run.

I guess a way to think of it would be watching someone walking on a motorized treadmill. They stay in place as they walk as they're feet slide back, but if they stop, they will slide backwards on the treadmill until they fall off. So you have to imagine a treadmill under your character on the paper.

Thien, the character will start again offset from where it originally was, or take a extra long footstep or leep to catch up before returning to the cycle where the character originally was before stopping.

I bet it has to be confusing when the pan has to slow to a stop, instead of a jerk, and the character foot slip distance would change each drawing to match the slow stop. Or say the background it panning to the left, but the character is running faster and still moves across the paper to the right, any foot on the ground still moves at the speed of the pan to the left, then say the characters stops at the edge of the paper, maybe climbed on a tall rock, looks around and slides back to the left side of the paper as he or she followed the pan, then starts leaping forward again.

Good analogy Tim, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[TimothyB]

Background movements should never be shot on 2's; always on 1's otherwise you will create a strobing effect; the background will have a jerky movement and not smooth. If the characters feet are seen on screen, the feet must move at the same rate as the pan move. That is the rule. Any other way you will create foot slippage, strobing and jerky movement.

Thanks

I never would of thought how a simple panning background in animation could lead to double the work for animators compared to a still shot that can be done on 2's.

How about this, say you had a panning background, the scene is following a character walking on 1's in the foreground. But you have stationary, animated, characters in the background, standing, sitting, leaning out a window, that are move with the pan. Do those characters still need to be on 1's and sliding off the paper as an animator works? Or is there a system to move cels with a panning background if needed? That way an animator can just draw the character in the same spot, maybe on 2's if a mechanical system moves the cel, unless that creates a strobe with arms moving left and right against the pan.

[DNethery]

I never would of thought how a simple panning background in animation could lead to double the work for animators compared to a still shot that can be done on 2's.

How about this, say you had a panning background, the scene is following a character walking on 1's in the foreground. But you have stationary, animated, characters in the background, standing, sitting, leaning out a window, that are move with the pan. Do those characters still need to be on 1's and sliding off the paper as an animator works? Or is there a system to move cels with a panning background if needed? That way an animator can just draw the character in the same spot, maybe on 2's if a mechanical system moves the cel, unless that creates a strobe with arms moving left and right against the pan.

"is there a system to move cels with a panning background if needed?"

Yes, if you had a panning BG with a character walking on 1's in the foreground with animated, characters in the background that are standing, sitting, leaning out a window, etc. , they would be animated in place (registering to the BG ) and pan east-to-west or west-to-east on the same pan bar as the BG. (background characters and BG on the bottom pan bar, with the character walk cycle on 1's in the foreground on stationary top pegs or auxiliary pegs which are centered and do not pan. )

Of course all this terminology about panning peg bars is pretty much antiquated now since the actual camera moves are done within the computer program such as Digicel Flipbook. But it still helps to think of it in those terms when organizing how the various levels will work together. (especially when you still have to prepare the LAYOUTS for the scene to work in the real world on a paper and a disc )

If you want to understand this old technology of pan bars , etc. take a look at the excellent handout called "The Perfect Pan: An Animation Scene Planning Primer" by David Steinberg, hosted on the AnimationMeat.com site:

"The Perfect Pan: An Animation Scene Planning Primer" (http://www.animationmeat.com/pdf/featureanimation/perfectpan.pdf)

Very similar material (but unique to the Disney system of pegs and field guides) is on the A-Film L.A. blog :

Disney Scene Planning Tech Manuals from the '30's Part 1 (http://afilmla.blogspot.com/2006/07/disney-tech-manuals-from-30s-i.html)

Disney Scene Planning Tech Manuals from the '30's Part 2 (http://afilmla.blogspot.com/2006/07/disney-tech-manuals-from-30s-ii.html)

Whether it's necessary for anyone to know all this stuff nowadays is debatable since the actual camera work is done inside the computer program once the hand-drawn artwork has been scanned. However, it's interesting to know about and understand the older technology , if only to appreciate that with something like Digicel Flipbook, TVP Animation, or Toonboom you basically have an "Oxberry Camera in a box".

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jL0PYTVd-Zs/SgxNpluoLWI/AAAAAAAAA7M/SH2WliuEwz4/s800/Oxberry_camera.jpg

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