Rough and Cleanup

[Snapai]

I know that a rough drawing is a drawing made to get the drawing in the right place, and a cleanup drawing is made to create the final linework for the screen.

But I've never been clear on exactly where this distinction lies. I haven't worked too much with other folks' roughs. I tend to work very scribbly when I'm animating, but I've seen other so-called "rough" drawings and animations that could practically have some color slapped on them and be called done.

YouTube in particular likes to call ANY pencil test "rough", no matter how clean.

Obviously when I'm worrying about where the drawing is and what the feeling and attitude of the character is, I'm making roughs, and when I'm worrying about how the lines look I'm doing cleanup or inkwork.

I guess what I really want to know is: How rough is too rough? How clean isn't rough enough? Since Don wants to see rough work for the Cyber Garage project, I want to make sure that I'm not shooting myself in the foot by either working too rough, or worrying too much about the look of each drawing.

[Regan]

I would think that very rough animation is fine as long as it's on model and everything is there, and the character can be seen among the scribbles.

If not, a tied down drawing might be helpful.

[JasonCampbell]

Your understanding of Rough versus clean up is spot on so is the confusion personal styles might create. All you have to do to see this is compare the animation of Glen Keane to Russ Edmonds. Glen will basically sculpt on the paper using every part of the pencil, Russ is very precise and "on model" with his "roughs". It really is how people animate but roughs are the first part of the equation clean up is the next to last.

At least that is how I see it.

J.

[DNethery]

A few examples (click the links to see the images larger)

http://picasaweb.google.com/2DAnimationAcademy/MiscAnimation?feat=directlink#5333229903176338786

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_jL0PYTVd-Zs/SgNwVxxRDWI/AAAAAAAAA1k/S7xKKgEeROY/s400/m03_CleanUP_07.jpg


http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/N1p7-9Yp1jrg89DMV1brOQ?feat=directlink

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jL0PYTVd-Zs/SgNwWMGmXbI/AAAAAAAAA1o/-lnCbM9yD-A/s400/Baxter_Sinbad_Rough_01.jpg



http://picasaweb.google.com/2DAnimationAcademy/MiscAnimation?feat=directlink#5333229909895153938
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jL0PYTVd-Zs/SgNwWKzKCRI/AAAAAAAAA1s/71MBSg1aH9g/s400/Ken_Duncan_Rough_To_Clean.jpg


Click HERE (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GH6URu9DlhK4ntc2-i0MZQ?feat=directlink)to see this image much larger :
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jL0PYTVd-Zs/SgNwV060beI/AAAAAAAAA1g/xQ0vl3m4Bu8/s400/m03_Ruff_To_Clean_lg.jpg

[lavallelee]

thanks for those DNethery

:)

[Snapai]

Click HERE (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GH6URu9DlhK4ntc2-i0MZQ?feat=directlink)to see this image much larger :
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jL0PYTVd-Zs/SgNwV060beI/AAAAAAAAA1g/xQ0vl3m4Bu8/s400/m03_Ruff_To_Clean_lg.jpg

:eek:

Oh...WOW.

Thank you SO MUCH for that one. I've been wondering that ever since college!!

They never went through ANY workflow even remotely like that for how to get from rough to clean. They just said "OK...now go clean things up so you can scan it, you have til next week!" That's like, the missing link in 90% of college animation programs out there!

Is that pretty much a rule for how studios go through it? I mean, it's obviously drawings from Disney (Cinderella I think?) How much variation is there from studio to studio?

THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU :D :D

[DNethery]

Is that pretty much a rule for how studios go through it? I mean, it's obviously drawings from Disney (Cinderella I think?) How much variation is there from studio to studio?

THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU :D :D


You're welcome.

Yes, that's the basic system which is used in every studio I've ever worked in or heard about . Variations are that sometimes if the animators work clean enough their rough drawings can go through a "touch-up" stage where they aren't really cleaned-up on a new sheet of paper , but are touched-up right on top of the original rough (think of the sketchy semi-rough look of "101 Dalmatians" or "Sword in the Stone" . Some of the animation in those movies had a traditional clean-up pass done over top of them, but a lot of it was just "touch-up" . Other variations: in some studios I've known of (primarily in Canada and the U.K.) the animators would do their own Key clean-ups and their assistants essentially did breakdowns and inbetweens. The first production I ever worked on in Canada was like that : those of us who were animating on the show were expected to rough animate our scenes, then do the clean-up for the key drawings. We would then pass the scenes on to the assistants to finish the rest of the clean-up drawings.

On most feature productions the work is handled by a hierarchal clean-up unit in an assembly-line fashion: Animators only do roughs, but are often assisted by "rough inbetweeners". Once the rough animation has been approved by the Director the Key Assistant will clean up the main key poses in the scene, putting the character "on-model" if need be and adding important details that the rough animator may have left out . The Key Assistant then passes the scene on to their Assistant who would do the secondary "keys" or "extremes" , next the Breakdown artist would do the most important inbetween positions (the "breakdowns") and the Inbetweener would fill in the rest .

This hierarchical system is a matter of quality control and production efficiency . It is designed to make the most of the time of the Key Assistants who are the most experienced clean-up artists on the unit, so the Key Asst's would spend their time on the most important key drawings in the scene , setting the model and the look of the scene, but not get bogged down in doing every single close inbetween (easier drawings which could be passed on to less-experienced artists.) But by that I don't mean to imply that the inbetweens are not important drawings ... all the drawings in a classically animated scene are important drawings , just not necessarily as important as the Keys and Extremes.

Sometimes the work will not be broken up among so many people. Especially in the case of a smaller studio the rough animator might have only one main Assistant who would assist by doing all the rough inbetweens , then the Assistant would double-back and do the Key clean-ups and probably most of the secondary extremes and breakdowns before passing the scene on to an Inbetweener to finish . In some cases the Assistant might be their own Inbetweener, so they would double-back again and fill in the clean-up inbetweens after keying the scene.

"They never went through ANY workflow even remotely like that for how to get from rough to clean. They just said "OK...now go clean things up so you can scan it, you have til next week!" That's like, the missing link in 90% of college animation programs out there!"

You're right, this isn't covered in depth by many books or art school classes. (although when I went to school at Sheridan College in the early 80's it was mandatory to learn how to do proper inbetweens and clean-ups, and they taught us the Disney system) This sort of thing tends to be on-the-job training . That's why the old way of starting at the "bottom" of the ladder as an inbetweener and working your way up through the ranks was a great system. You got to learn from better, more experienced artists who were over you.

I do teach a class in Animation Assisting at the college I teach at , but I'm sorry to say it's not mandatory (I think it should be.)

I haven't seen the video tutorial yet, but I expect what Don has put together for you all in his new Inbetweening tutorial is probably the best thing you'll find on how to do it .



There are a couple of studio handouts on the AnimationMeat.com site which have some good basic info. on inbetweening:

10 Steps to a Perfect Inbetween (http://www.animationmeat.com/pdf/featureanimation/10Steps.pdf)

and

Helpful Hints For Clean-Up (http://www.animationmeat.com/pdf/featureanimation/cleanuphints.pdf)

There is also good , solid info. on clean up and inbetweening in the Walt Stanchfield notes which have just been published in two volumes called "Drawn to Life: 20 Golden Years of Disney Master Classes" (http://www.amazon.ca/Drawn-Life-Classes-Stanchfield-Lectures/dp/0240810961) Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 by Walt Stanchfield. (Vol. 1 has the most info. on inbetweening and clean-up, but get both volumes, they're great.)
In fact some of the info. in that handout on the AnimationMeat site is based on Walt Stanchfield's notes.

[Regan]

David, I imagine that system is great for getting a consistent look to the characters. Is there anything that can be done to make sure characters are all looking the same if you are working with a few other people, but each one is completely animating and cleaning up their own scenes?

I think each person has an individual way of making drawings...and there would be subtle differences, no matter how long you study the model sheets.

[Snapai]

On most feature productions the work is handled by a hierarchal clean-up unit in an assembly-line fashion: Animators only do roughs, but are often assisted by "rough inbetweeners". Once the rough animation has been approved by the Director the Key Assistant will clean up the main key poses in the scene, putting the character "on-model" if need be and adding important details that the rough animator may have left out . The Key Assistant then passes the scene on to their Assistant who would do the secondary "keys" or "extremes" , next the Breakdown artist would do the most important inbetween positions (the "breakdowns") and the Inbetweener would fill in the rest .

So typically, other than the rough inbetweeners, the scenes don't leave the animator's hands until every frame is drawn?

But by that I don't mean to imply that the inbetweens are not important drawings ... all the drawings in a classically animated scene are important drawings , just not necessarily as important as the Keys and Extremes.

Oh sure. Every drawing's a part of the performance. Richard Williams talks about the disastrous effects of lazy inbetweens in A.S.K. Anything consistently off on the inbetweens just makes for a stutter in the animation. After reading the Drawn To Life notes, I'm half tempted to put Ollie Johnston's "It Aint Easy" on a sign somewhere near my desk. :B

That's why the old way of starting at the "bottom" of the ladder as an inbetweener and working your way up through the ranks was a great system.

Yeah, too bad I have to move to India or Korea if I want to work my way up starting at inbetweener, now. :(
(except for the Cyber-Garage project, that is! :D)

I do teach a class in Animation Assisting at the college I teach at , but I'm sorry to say it's not mandatory (I think it should be.)

If you're teaching on-the-job stuff and studios' "accidental-secrets" like this, definitely!


I haven't seen the video tutorial yet, but I expect what Don has put together for you all in his new Inbetweening tutorial is probably the best thing you'll find on how to do it .

Well, I tried it on Ducky's walk cycle from AM, and posted it to my gallery thread (http://www.donbluthanimation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86&page=2#post2426)- does it look like I did it right? :D


There are a couple of studio handouts on the AnimationMeat.com site which have some good basic info. on inbetweening:
[snip]
There is also good , solid info. on clean up and inbetweening in the Walt Stanchfield notes which have just been published in two volumes called "Drawn to Life: 20 Golden Years of Disney Master Classes" (http://www.amazon.ca/Drawn-Life-Classes-Stanchfield-Lectures/dp/0240810961) Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 by Walt Stanchfield.

Yep, I've had the AnimationMeat stuff since college, we found the site independently of our teachers, and pretty much devoured everything listed there. That was back when they still had some of the notes hosted on the site!

I also got the full "Drawn to Life" set from Amazon last week, and have been reading through it. Wonderful stuff. :)

[Don Bluth]

I know that a rough drawing is a drawing made to get the drawing in the right place, and a cleanup drawing is made to create the final linework for the screen.

But I've never been clear on exactly where this distinction lies. I haven't worked too much with other folks' roughs. I tend to work very scribbly when I'm animating, but I've seen other so-called "rough" drawings and animations that could practically have some color slapped on them and be called done.

YouTube in particular likes to call ANY pencil test "rough", no matter how clean.

Obviously when I'm worrying about where the drawing is and what the feeling and attitude of the character is, I'm making roughs, and when I'm worrying about how the lines look I'm doing cleanup or inkwork.

I guess what I really want to know is: How rough is too rough? How clean isn't rough enough? Since Don wants to see rough work for the Cyber Garage project, I want to make sure that I'm not shooting myself in the foot by either working too rough, or worrying too much about the look of each drawing.

What I learned when I worked at Disney was the pattern of thought for an animator and a cleanup person run opposite ends of the scale. Rough is a term which means use as many lines as you have to to create moving shapes, correct line directions, and rhythm to bring a character to life.
The Cleanup artist, on the other hand, is almost entirely focused on the quality of his/her lines, that is, the line density, the line taper and the line thickness, and at the same time, trying not to lose what the animator intended. The reason I insist on working rough is so you will think like an animator and not a cleanup artist.
Milt Kahl's roughs were actually very clean but he claimed he could visualize the drawing already complete on the paper. Frank Thomas drawings, in contrast, were multiple lines and often one would have to hunt for the character in the lines; but when you saw his pencil test, it truly gave the illusion of life.

[jeremyhopkins]

One thing that gets overlooked is the difference between rough and tied down. Many people were mistaking this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcydhJ-_eu0) as James' first pass rough animation:
WcydhJ-_eu0&hl
It brought up the point that many people probably don't know what tie downs are or how they're used in animation.

Nice clean up on Pumba David! I bet Tony was happy with your work!

[Snapai]

One thing that gets overlooked is the difference between rough and tied down.
It brought up the point that many people probably don't know what tie downs are or how they're used in animation.


So. Uh. Care to enlighten us then? :)
Wiktionary lists the meaning of the phrase as:

to constrain, or to confine within set limits.
to secure as if with a rope or hook.


So I'm guessing it's a pass to get everything at least fully detailed and on model, so it can be cleaned up?

It looks like cleanup to me, just without the super clean and enclosed linework needed for ink-n-paint.

[BrioCyrain]

So. Uh. Care to enlighten us then? :)
Wiktionary lists the meaning of the phrase as:

to constrain, or to confine within set limits.
to secure as if with a rope or hook.


So I'm guessing it's a pass to get everything at least fully detailed and on model, so it can be cleaned up?

It looks like cleanup to me, just without the super clean and enclosed linework needed for ink-n-paint.

Have to get credit to the people who probably ink and paint...have to have perfect fingering and lining, because I am pretty sure nobody wants to make another copy of the cel.

[jeremyhopkins]

Oh, sorry I thought it was explained by David in his post.
Wiktionary lists the meaning of the phrase as:

1. to constrain, or to confine within set limits.
2. to secure as if with a rope or hook.

Yeah, that's kind of the right idea. Basically its separating the drawing phases to acomodate different thought processes.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jL0PYTVd-Zs/SgNwWMGmXbI/AAAAAAAAA1o/-lnCbM9yD-A/s400/Baxter_Sinbad_Rough_01.jpg
I'd also like to add a 3rd phase which is thumbnailing ideas. Some people like to do this all in their head, others like to explore it on paper but the goal is to explore more than one acting choice. It's different from thinking about the character which should come before anything else.

The initial first pass can be very loose with a few lines as possible to clearly communicate an idea. It'll help get the acting and action down and communicate it quickly to the director or other animators.

The tie down pass is focusing more on the drawing and technique. So here you check for model, spacing, arcs, and it also gives time to focus on drapery, hair, etc. Yeah, the lines don't have to be clean.. just clear. This takes the longest time to do so its valuable to get the rough idea down quickly, get it approved and then move on to tie down the work.

So tie downs are basically about efficiency and giving the clean up crew a clear idea of what you want.

[feliceworkshop]

Wow, U-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e! :eek:
I'm learning more about traditional animation in the 15 days that I've been hangin' around this forum & subscribed as a member, than in 3 years of college....Thank you so much tDNethery and Mr.Bluth for enlighting us about this important yet basically overlooked aspect of animation production through this great thread. (..and actually thank you snapai for bringing up the topic)....

"They never went through ANY workflow even remotely like that for how to get from rough to clean. They just said "OK...now go clean things up so you can scan it, you have til next week!" That's like, the missing link in 90% of college animation programs out there!"

...sadly that has been my experience in college as well,...I believe that nowadays, expecially after the shift in gears toward 3D, it's really darn impossible to find a college that gives you a solid foundation about the nuts and bolts of the process. Most 2D animation classes are reduced as a bland introduction to animation principles with rushed-on and tedious assignements delivered for the sake of passing the class....unfortunately the declining in quality of these 2d animation classes has affected the perception of the majority of nowaday students who view 2D animation classes as a sore tooth to pull out before getting into the far poular 3d classes.:mad:

[Snapai]

Yeah.

My first 2D animation course in college was by a bitter teacher who later took and flunked out of the second one in the series. :/

Most of the rest of the 2D teachers were just kinda....so thrilled that they still had people in their class that they didn't really push us to get better. "How can I improve this?" - "Wow, you're drawing and actually trying to do 2D animation, that's wonderful, keep it up!" - "..."

By the time I got a class with the one guy who was both good and insistent that we learn (Rick Catizone (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0146175/), in case you're wondering), the classes were far too busy for him to go back and correct all the gaps we all had from classes with other teachers. D:

[feliceworkshop]

...sorry don't mean to hijack the thread but I must reply to snapai:

By the time I got a class with the one guy who was both good and insistent that we learn (Rick Catizone, in case you're wondering), the classes were far too busy for him to go back and correct all the gaps we all had from classes with other teachers. D:

I hear ya, kinda got the same deal in college...my first teacher for 2D classes was simply awesome!...great mentor and incredibly skilled 2d animator: Erin Humiston
http://basakward.deviantart.com/ ...but he only lasted one term before moving to another city. The instructor they assigned us after that (to mentor us for the intermediate 2D animation classes) was just a riot: I'll always remember his infamous "how to lipsyinc lesson": he distibuited to the class a photocopy of the phonems drawings from the Preston Blair book and walked out to "smoke a sigarette". (he actually left us there and we ended up seeing him again for the next class the following week!)
Good times.

[DNethery]

Jeremy brings up a good point about the "tie-down" phase .


I think the other drawing I posted really demonstrates it well, too:

Ken Duncan's first pass rough of Jane, vs. the tied-down version he actually passed on to his clean-up crew.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_jL0PYTVd-Zs/SgNwWKzKCRI/AAAAAAAAA1s/71MBSg1aH9g/s800/Ken_Duncan_Rough_To_Clean.jpg

You can view Quicktimes of the two versions of this scene at links posted here:

Ken Duncan Rough pencil test and Tie-Down pencil test (http://hand-drawn-animation.blogspot.com/2008/04/ken-duncan-jane-rough-animation-from.html)

[feliceworkshop]

Wow, thank you for the link DNethery, so essentially the rough animator does not work necessarily all the times at details such as hair or folds for the dress (just as in the example of the Tarzan scene)?...well, I might be wrong but isn't that type of work just as hard to animate? or in specific cases (such as when details like hair require secondary motion or overlapping action) the rough-in artist delivers a far more detailed work?

[lavallelee]

gosh, when i watch the tie down pass, the cloth on her dress moves so freely and perfect

i am very jealous of the skill, how can i get that good!

[WillW]

wow I love the flow on both of those, does her leg gets shorter when she points at it or is it just me?. Very inspiring stuff here.

[Snapai]

You can view Quicktimes of the two versions of this scene at links posted here:

Ken Duncan Rough pencil test and Tie-Down pencil test (http://hand-drawn-animation.blogspot.com/2008/04/ken-duncan-jane-rough-animation-from.html)

I notice that the "rough pass" has about a quarter as many of the frames drawn as the "tie down pass".

There's two things going on here, then. After the rough test that's posted, the scene is getting its tie-down lines, and it's being filled in to the full framerate.

So which is first?
It looks (because of less 'rough drawing' under many of the frames in the tie down pass) like the roughs are tied down first, then the rest of the drawings made as tiedowns. Seems like that'd give the "tightest" (least wiggly) result. Or is this a matter of personal preference for the animator doing the shot?

[jeremyhopkins]

Yes, just like clean-up, the extremes are tied down first and then the rest is fleshed out. You're right, this helps prevents the drawing from morphing or features from sliding.